65 million years ago
Yep, it's another theodicy post. I guess I'm obsessed. I often ask myself why it so bothers me, what's wrong with me, that the problem of evil won't let me rest. Don't know.
At any rate, I just listened to one of the Philosophy Bites podcasts, this one, Stephen Law on The Problem of Evil, has Stephen Law, a philosopher who teaches at Heythrop College, University of London, discussing the paradox of an all good, all powerful God creating a world with so much suffering.
The thing I found especially interesting in his argument (about two thirds of the way through the interview) was his way of addressing the usual defense by Christians for this problem .... free will. I think the free will defense is unconvincing, and Law points out a couple of the reasons why. Here's that bit of his interview ....
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"[...] the simplest version [of the free will defense] says God gave us free will, he didn't make us automata that just do whatever God commands us to do or makes us do, as if we were his puppets dancing on his strings. He cut the strings, set us free, so we can make our own choices, our own decisions, and act upon them. And unfortunately we sometimes choose to do the wrong thing, and we start wars, we steal, and so on. Suffering results. But that suffering is outweighed by the good of free will ....
One problem with that as an explanation is that it fails to explain a very great deal of suffering, the natural suffering, produced, for example, by natural disasters. Not very long ago there was an earthquake in Pakistan in which tens of thousands of children were crushed under buildings. They just arrived at school and they were trapped under the ground, dying days, weeks later in some cases. How do we explain that in a manner consistent with an all powerful, all good God? It won't do to say, well, it has something to do with free will, because we don't produce earthquakes, not even accidently.
And to add to that, let's not forget that it's not just human beings that suffer. Anyone who's seen the BBC program Plane Earth will know we share the world with many sentient beings the lives of which are absolutely horrific, not just now but it's been that way for hundreds of millions of years. Sixty-five million years ago there was a massive extinction event, possibly a comet, we don't know exactly, but we know that it wiped ninety-five percent of the species from the face of the earth. That would have produced unimaginable suffering.
Sharpening up the evidential problem of evil, we could put it like this ... an all powerful, all good God, he might put some suffering in the world but he wouldn't put even an ounce of gratuitous and unnecessary suffering in the world ..... "
*
At any rate, I just listened to one of the Philosophy Bites podcasts, this one, Stephen Law on The Problem of Evil, has Stephen Law, a philosopher who teaches at Heythrop College, University of London, discussing the paradox of an all good, all powerful God creating a world with so much suffering.
The thing I found especially interesting in his argument (about two thirds of the way through the interview) was his way of addressing the usual defense by Christians for this problem .... free will. I think the free will defense is unconvincing, and Law points out a couple of the reasons why. Here's that bit of his interview ....
*
"[...] the simplest version [of the free will defense] says God gave us free will, he didn't make us automata that just do whatever God commands us to do or makes us do, as if we were his puppets dancing on his strings. He cut the strings, set us free, so we can make our own choices, our own decisions, and act upon them. And unfortunately we sometimes choose to do the wrong thing, and we start wars, we steal, and so on. Suffering results. But that suffering is outweighed by the good of free will ....
One problem with that as an explanation is that it fails to explain a very great deal of suffering, the natural suffering, produced, for example, by natural disasters. Not very long ago there was an earthquake in Pakistan in which tens of thousands of children were crushed under buildings. They just arrived at school and they were trapped under the ground, dying days, weeks later in some cases. How do we explain that in a manner consistent with an all powerful, all good God? It won't do to say, well, it has something to do with free will, because we don't produce earthquakes, not even accidently.
And to add to that, let's not forget that it's not just human beings that suffer. Anyone who's seen the BBC program Plane Earth will know we share the world with many sentient beings the lives of which are absolutely horrific, not just now but it's been that way for hundreds of millions of years. Sixty-five million years ago there was a massive extinction event, possibly a comet, we don't know exactly, but we know that it wiped ninety-five percent of the species from the face of the earth. That would have produced unimaginable suffering.
Sharpening up the evidential problem of evil, we could put it like this ... an all powerful, all good God, he might put some suffering in the world but he wouldn't put even an ounce of gratuitous and unnecessary suffering in the world ..... "
*
posted by crystal | 12:31 AM
9 Comments:
Ah, but man does cause earthquakes, such as the one in China that was triggered by the weight of a large man made lake. So much for scientific accuracy among the philosophers :). But that little problem does not really impact on the problem of evil in a world made by a good God. And I don't have an answer to why there is evil in the world.
I suspect that part of the answer is that we really don't know what good and evil really are, nor do we know or understand what God really is. I have seen good come out of evil, and I have seen people propose attributes to God that were downright silly. But one thing kind of haunts me, and that is if God created the world, then he kind of has the right to call the shots as to what is good and evil, He has the right to define things. I may disagree with Him, and I guess I can go off and create my own world where I can define good and evil, but I think I will pass up that choice for several reasons :).
You had an interesting posting on evolutionary theology some months back that really caught my attention. Perhaps earthquakes are a driving force in our incomplete evolution that will lead to our ability to detect future disasters. If the theory is right, it would be foolish to think that we are the final product of God's plan.
One thing for sure, it is darn difficult to argue with God :)!
Love and hugs,
Mike L
Hi Mike,
if God created the world, then he kind of has the right to call the shots as to what is good and evil, He has the right to define things.
I think that's true, that God would define what's right, but it seems to me that then for things to make sense, being God's creatures we'd mostly have the same idea as he does of what's right, pain and suffering would be bad, etc.
Yeah some people, like Keith Ward, see evolution and the bad stuff here as necessary to turning out the kind of creatures we are.
But none of this makes it easy for me to trust or love or respect or even sometimes believe in a God who would be ok with, for instance, letting my mom die slowly of lung cancer.
Well! I was right in the middle of a reply when there was a flash of light, the rumble of thunder, and all the lights and the computer shut down. Maybe God wants me to make a different comment :). But, hey, the rain is coming down, and that takes priority over everything out here!
It would certainly seem that God created a world where something has to die in order for me to live, and likewise at some point I shall have to die in order for something/someone else to live. It is certainly difficult to see this as good, or even not-evil. And I have no clue as to why God chose this pattern unless He expects each generation to be better than the last - evolution in other words.
I keep hearing that we should trust in God, and like you I find that difficult at times. I think we can trust him in spiritual matters, but I think I will do my best to protect myself from earthquakes and I will keep on encouraging the medical field to develop a cure from prostate cancer :).
I think that I do not know what God's purpose in creating the universe is, but somehow I have doubts that we are the be all and end all of that creation. Claiming we are seems a bit presumptious on our part.
In the end, I think that believing in a good God rather that either an evil one, or just pure random selection makes for a better life.
By the way, Susannah dropped the disks in the mail yesterday so you should have them by the end of the week.
Hugs,
Mike L
Mike,
Rain - it almost never rains here in summer. I never would have thought that parts of New Mexico got more rainfall than central California.
I do trust God at the same time as not trusting, which sounds schizophrenic. Maybe it's that I love him while still not being sure he's who I think he is. Just another dysfunctional relationship in the life of Crystal :)
Thanks for downliading and burning the book for me - I love that book, can't wait to listen to it. Please thanks Susannah for mailing it.
I think it's similar to kids having to trust their parents simply because they don't and can't understand their world. God sees everything and understands everything and that is why I choose to trust Him no matter what horrible things are going on around me or to me. I prefer that so I don't have to live in fear - I hate how worrying makes me feel. Our responsibility simply lies in allowing that relationship to develop - so we can hear His voice when it really matters! I agree with Mike - in the end it makes for a better life!
Hugs ~ D
PS - My Grandmother died slowly of cancer. She drank and smoked excessively her whole life and never gave it up. Some things just go back to personal choices. One day not long ago my son was nearly hit by a car . . . you can tell your child over and over to not run into the road but if they choose to disobey . . .
Anyway - not a personal comment on your mom's situation at all, just wanted to sympathize as I know how hard it is to watch bad things happening to our loved ones.
Hi Dyan,
I choose to trust Him .... in the end it makes for a better life!
Yeah it does, and I think now that I've experienced the relationship, even as tortured as it is for me, I'd never be able to give it up - the alternative is just too bleak.
But I feel very strongly that suffering is bad, so bad some of it, that there are just no good excuses for it, and I find chilling the thought that God apparently does have some excuses for allowing it.
It would be one thing for a person to say 'I did suffer because of x, but it was worth it for whatever reason, or I trust God that the experience was somehow meaningful, even if I don't understand how'. I do sometimes feel this way about bad stuff that's happened to me.
But I don't think I have the right to say that for anyone else. I can't tell myself that the holocaust, for instnce, doesn't say something pretty scary about what God considers acceptable, in order to maintain my comfortable relationship of trust in God.
My mom was a lifetime smoker and when she got cancer I was just infuriated with her, partly because I had always unsucessfully tried to get her to stop smoking, and partly because I knew I was going to end up suffering with her at least to some extent as she got sicker. But still, no matter how complicit she was in her own suffering, I cannot really understand how God was ok with letting her suffer so much, and I have real concerns about trusting him with the wellbeing of my loved ones even in the afterlife, given his track record.
So there, I said it .... it's not pretty but it's how I feel, at least sometimes :(
Dyan,
Sorry, I meant to also thank you for commenting and telling me about your grandmother.
And I don't mean to sound as negative as I did in that comment. I have two feelings - one is a very strong feeling that God loves us incredibly much. The other is a worry that I don't see how he can love us and let us suffer. It's a conflict which I can't seem to resolve, though most of the time I try to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I don't think you're overly negative! And I love your honesty which is one of the reasons I read your blog - it makes me think more deeply about things. So often I find I don't have anything intelligent to say (which is why I don't comment very often) but at least I'm being stretched regarding my beliefs :)
I'm going to leave you with 2 pieces of scripture that are comforting to me:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened ... If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" (Matthew 7:7-11).
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths" (Proverbs 3:5-6).
Keep talking to God! Keep asking him those hard questions! He's big enough and strong enough to handle it ;)
Thank you for sharing yourself so openly, Crystal!
XO ~ Dyan
Dyan,
Thanks for the kind words and those scripture quotes :) One of the things my past spiritual director told me was if nothing else to be honest with God, so I talk to him about everything, even the stuff that I think he doesn't want to hear :)
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